12-10-2014, 09:06 PM
41
Re: That Speech in April 1968
Originally Posted by Patsy
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Sadly, there will be racists in every partyBut - because people express concern over immigration does 'not' make them racist, we need to keep that in mind ...
12-10-2014, 11:26 PM
42
Re: That Speech in April 1968
Originally Posted by Baxter8
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"Greatest"? - I would not have described it as great, it was shameful. Thank goodness this is only an over 50s forum where racism and intolerance are still evidently rife. Younger people in schools and universities seem to be far more tolerant, have a greater social awareness and are rarely racist, believe in inclusiveness rather than exclusiveness - thankfully they are the future not us.
I'm horrified that my contemporaries could refer to Enoch Powell's speech as anything other than what it was, the deluded nonsense of misguided a moron. I feel affronted and embarrassed to read glorification of a xenophobe such as Enoch Powell
13-10-2014, 07:23 AM
43
Re: That Speech in April 1968
Not sure what he was standing up and telling to be honest or more importantly I cannot really understand its relevance today.I assume rivers of blood referred to violent crime and yet the Crime Survey for England and Wales found that violent crime had gone down by 13% since 2005.
Sadly in December 2013 a Birmingham newspaper reported "Hate-fuelled crimes in which victims have been attacked because of their religion have spiralled by an alarming.57.6 per cent in the West Midlands over the past two years"
Not a pretty picture for those that support right wing views and groups. But I guess it makes it easier for everyone to blame the victim?
Originally Posted by mysterie
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Many would be horrified at what you write sometimes. Powell had the balls to stand up and tell it like it is - unlike your sort he did not join the vast crowds to be a part of the majority, he actually stood out from the crowd. Many would agree with him, particularly those who are living the nightmare in reality today.
13-10-2014, 09:42 AM
44
Re: That Speech in April 1968
OK Meg point taken. So my view.I admired many things about Enoch Powell – he was so erudite, not without charm and not a bad poet, and I hope he didn't fully realise the impact of his words in certain sections of society.
I grew up in the (ironically named!) Black Country and we never saw a black face. When I visited Birmingham in the 90s I was overwhelmed when walking down Broad Street that there were scarcely any white faces. I was scared, because people looked different from me.
But as Sandy has said, things change. Young people don't grow up with our hangups. When I finally met my daughter's best friend from school, I was amazed because my daughter had never mentioned she was black – she is oblivious to people's colour. I'm proud of that. Sarah's mother had met her father in Africa and he had moved here with her, becoming a magistrate and a highly-respected member of the community.
We're a mongrel race. We all started in Africa and migrated, we've bits of Vikings, Normans, Saxons, Celts, French, you name it. And now the world is truly global, we really are that great big melting pot that was sung about – we're all human, bottom line. We have to adjust to changing times. My cousin, staunch Tory now voting UKIP, has in his equally Tory family, one niece married to a Pakistani and one niece married to an Italian who was working here, both with plenty of children, and two nephews working as bankers in Denmark as part of the EU – these things work both ways. Loads of Britons emigrate and expect to be welcomed. And if we can't accept what is actually a relatively small amount of terrified immigrants escaping from horrific regimes, and who are prepared to go through unimaginable peril to reach this country with its proud tradition of freedom and equality, I think that's pretty shameful.
Statistics are bandied about and can be made to prove anything. For every 'they're taking our jobs' there will be a counter 'the NHS couldn't run without immigrant staff'. There is so much scaremongering rhetoric about these days. A lot of what is called 'racist' talk and behaviour is fear at change and the pace of change. The people Enoch was talking about had been brought here by our governments to help us run the country. Our declining standard of living, the austerity climate, has been brought about by greedy bankers selling non-existent stuff to greedy people all of whom got away with it while we pay for it. That's something to get angry about!
I think that speech licensed the end of tolerance in certain quarters. And that's sad. And I do agree that people need to be careful about entrenched positions, be open-minded and listen to debate from all sides. London-centred politicians, driven by opinion polls and blowing with every wind, don't do enough to explain issues, they don't credit people with enough intelligence to understand. I find it insulting. I don't want soundbites, I want considered arguments.
13-10-2014, 10:07 AM
45
Re: That Speech in April 1968
Originally Posted by Roseredlee
->
OK Meg point taken. So my view.I admired many things about Enoch Powell – he was so erudite, not without charm and not a bad poet, and I hope he didn't fully realise the impact of his words in certain sections of society.
I grew up in the (ironically named!) Black Country and we never saw a black face. When I visited Birmingham in the 90s I was overwhelmed when walking down Broad Street that there were scarcely any white faces. I was scared, because people looked different from me.
But as Sandy has said, things change. Young people don't grow up with our hangups. When I finally met my daughter's best friend from school, I was amazed because my daughter had never mentioned she was black – she is oblivious to people's colour. I'm proud of that. Sarah's mother had met her father in Africa and he had moved here with her, becoming a magistrate and a highly-respected member of the community.
We're a mongrel race. We all started in Africa and migrated, we've bits of Vikings, Normans, Saxons, Celts, French, you name it. And now the world is truly global, we really are that great big melting pot that was sung about – we're all human, bottom line. We have to adjust to changing times. My cousin, staunch Tory now voting UKIP, has in his equally Tory family, one niece married to a Pakistani and one niece married to an Italian who was working here, both with plenty of children, and two nephews working as bankers in Denmark as part of the EU – these things work both ways. Loads of Britons emigrate and expect to be welcomed. And if we can't accept what is actually a relatively small amount of terrified immigrants escaping from horrific regimes, and who are prepared to go through unimaginable peril to reach this country with its proud tradition of freedom and equality, I think that's pretty shameful.
Statistics are bandied about and can be made to prove anything. For every 'they're taking our jobs' there will be a counter 'the NHS couldn't run without immigrant staff'. There is so much scaremongering rhetoric about these days. A lot of what is called 'racist' talk and behaviour is fear at change and the pace of change. The people Enoch was talking about had been brought here by our governments to help us run the country. Our declining standard of living, the austerity climate, has been brought about by greedy bankers selling non-existent stuff to greedy people all of whom got away with it while we pay for it. That's something to get angry about!
I think that speech licensed the end of tolerance in certain quarters. And that's sad. And I do agree that people need to be careful about entrenched positions, be open-minded and listen to debate from all sides. London-centred politicians, driven by opinion polls and blowing with every wind, don't do enough to explain issues, they don't credit people with enough intelligence to understand. I find it insulting. I don't want soundbites, I want considered arguments.
I am pleased to see you decided to stay and express your opinion too.
13-10-2014, 10:08 AM
46
Re: That Speech in April 1968
Oh Roserdlee - you are my new bestest friend!!!So beautifully and sensitively written.
We are as you say, one world, there is no difference between us - we all want the best for our families and friends. We all have our beliefs and customs and I believe passionately we should all be permitted to practice and celebrate them.
I can't think of a more important expression than "we should all learn to share".
Originally Posted by Roseredlee
->
OK Meg point taken. So my view.I admired many things about Enoch Powell – he was so erudite, not without charm and not a bad poet, and I hope he didn't fully realise the impact of his words in certain sections of society.
I grew up in the (ironically named!) Black Country and we never saw a black face. When I visited Birmingham in the 90s I was overwhelmed when walking down Broad Street that there were scarcely any white faces. I was scared, because people looked different from me.
But as Sandy has said, things change. Young people don't grow up with our hangups. When I finally met my daughter's best friend from school, I was amazed because my daughter had never mentioned she was black – she is oblivious to people's colour. I'm proud of that. Sarah's mother had met her father in Africa and he had moved here with her, becoming a magistrate and a highly-respected member of the community.
We're a mongrel race. We all started in Africa and migrated, we've bits of Vikings, Normans, Saxons, Celts, French, you name it. And now the world is truly global, we really are that great big melting pot that was sung about – we're all human, bottom line. We have to adjust to changing times. My cousin, staunch Tory now voting UKIP, has in his equally Tory family, one niece married to a Pakistani and one niece married to an Italian who was working here, both with plenty of children, and two nephews working as bankers in Denmark as part of the EU – these things work both ways. Loads of Britons emigrate and expect to be welcomed. And if we can't accept what is actually a relatively small amount of terrified immigrants escaping from horrific regimes, and who are prepared to go through unimaginable peril to reach this country with its proud tradition of freedom and equality, I think that's pretty shameful.
Statistics are bandied about and can be made to prove anything. For every 'they're taking our jobs' there will be a counter 'the NHS couldn't run without immigrant staff'. There is so much scaremongering rhetoric about these days. A lot of what is called 'racist' talk and behaviour is fear at change and the pace of change. The people Enoch was talking about had been brought here by our governments to help us run the country. Our declining standard of living, the austerity climate, has been brought about by greedy bankers selling non-existent stuff to greedy people all of whom got away with it while we pay for it. That's something to get angry about!
I think that speech licensed the end of tolerance in certain quarters. And that's sad. And I do agree that people need to be careful about entrenched positions, be open-minded and listen to debate from all sides. London-centred politicians, driven by opinion polls and blowing with every wind, don't do enough to explain issues, they don't credit people with enough intelligence to understand. I find it insulting. I don't want soundbites, I want considered arguments.
13-10-2014, 10:25 AM
48
Re: That Speech in April 1968
There are sufficient resources in this country to house and feed immigrants.I don't understand your point?
Originally Posted by Patsy
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Have you got rooms they could sleep and eat in ? I'm not being flippant but as you are both so willing to accept more immigrants here, you could do your bit to accommodate them .........
13-10-2014, 11:04 AM
49
Re: That Speech in April 1968
Originally Posted by Baxter8
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There are sufficient resources in this country to house and feed immigrants. I don't understand your point?
It is interesting that in my small multi-cultural cul-de-sac, it is the former immigrants who rail most strongly against continued immigration. My pakistani-origin next door neighbour built his building firm up over 30 years, only to see it come close to liquidation due to undercutting by eastern european builders with no overheads. He hates the EU with a vengeance as he sees all his hard work and enterprise going down the drain due to unfair competition.
13-10-2014, 11:09 AM
50
Re: That Speech in April 1968
Yep - it's all about distribution of resources and the unfair tax system in this country. It is to the state's advantage that those with fewest resources argue amongst themselves - such as happens on this thread.No need to remind people that the last recession that we were forced to endure was nothing to do with the working class folk or the immigrants of this country and yet they paid the heaviest price in terms of austerity measures. The bankers who, let's face it virtually bankrupted the country with their greed, literally and figuratively laughed all the way to the bank unencumbered.
Yes - I would be willing to pay more tax if that is the question and I would certainly be happy for a more equitable tax system to be installed.
Originally Posted by MickB
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as a supporter of mass immigration, you would be prepared to put your money where your mouth is and offer some of your personal resources to help "house and feed immigrants."|
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